As the entertainment industry strikes continue, Mackenzie Joy-Brennan has a chat with Hollywood costume designer Nicole Suerez Jones whose local IATSE (International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees) unions aren’t on strike, but are still suffering the effects of the current dual strikes in Hollywood. Nicole talks studio executive greed, working conditions, artificial intelligence, and what it means to be functioning in an industry that appears to be at an impasse.
Transcript
Mackenzie Joy Brennan: I feel like every industry has a similar problem, and the only fix is like, “be born into wealth!”
Nicole Suerez Jones: Why couldn’t I have that card?
Brennan: I know, can’t plan for that too well.
Hello and welcome. My name is Mackenzie Joy Brennan. I’m a lawyer in Arizona and New York, and I figured it was time to make an introduction, because this is a new platform. I am a master’s student at ASU Cronkite School, I’ll be a graduate assisting at the Reynolds Center for Business Journalism for the next year or so. So thank you so much to the Reynolds Center for putting your faith in me and giving me this platform. Together, we’re going to cover where business and law intersect, and hopefully make it a little less dry than you might be anticipating. If you’re interested in following me elsewhere and getting more of this law adjacent nonsense, you can find me on social media @MKZJoyBrennan and I appear on Someplace Underneath from the last podcast network, the second Thursday of every month on Twitch.
So without further ado, let’s plunge into today’s topic. We’ve all been aware of the Hollywood plus the show business actors and writers strikes that are going on right now and have been for a while. They’re still ongoing. Now I get that, especially at this point in the strike news cycle. We’re getting a little tired. Maybe it’s natural to feel some kind of like capitalist resentment at folks who have even the luxury to try being the starving artist type, even though it’s getting dicey, even for those without luxury, or, you know, at best, ranging to apathy. We’re over 100 days deep into the strike, which I think says a lot of other things too. The corporate studio’s stance here creates a lot of ripple effects that haven’t really been discussed. It also the nature of these disputes kind of represents writing on the wall for what labor disputes and worker’s rights issues are going to look like in more and more industries as we enter this AI driven gig economy. We’re already in the gig economy, lot of independent contractor type relationships, which don’t ensure as many labor rights. And we’re adding AI to a lot of worker fields. The one thing about Hollywood is they are on the cutting edge of the cutting edge in terms of what labor issues are going to be presented with a lot of AI-based negotiations. So in that sense, if you’re wondering how it relates to you, it’s going to start coming up again and again. I met Nicole Suerez now, Nicole Suerez Jones, when I was a little freak in high school, and she was much cooler than I was/am. She’s a costumer and assistant costume designer. She lives in Los Angeles, and she is a member, as she’ll tell you, of two adjacent unions to both SAG-AFTRA and the Writers Guild, but she’s actually not in a striking union right now. Her unions fought really hard to reach a deal earlier in the summer with the same studios, and now are facing work stoppage for reasons that they’re completely sympathetic with, but they don’t even get the benefits of striking workers, things like charity considerations, health insurance extensions, even, collective control over when these strikes end and a seat at the table. So we’ll hear from her what life looks like directly adjacent to but out of compassionate reach from the direct strike.
Suerez Jones: We all knew this was coming. My name is Nicole Jones. I am a costumer and assistant costume designer in the industry, which places me in two different unions. I’m in 705 and 892. 705 is motion picture costumers, and 892 is the costume designers guild. And none of my unions are striking. But obviously with strikes comes work delays and work stoppage, which does affect every single crew member and beyond. And for every job that I take, I always have to confirm with my union which contract are we working under. Because depending on the type of project, I could be on the basic agreement contract, which encompasses a lot of shows and productions, or I could be on the live broadcast contract or the commercial contract, or there’s like the new media contract is like a side letter of the basic agreement. So every three years, every union is negotiating with the same conglomerate AMPTP. Everyone’s contracts and at different times. So we were in a situation with WGA, SAG, DGA, all of those contracts were expiring one after another this past year. So we started with the Writers Guild on May 1.
Brennan: And was kind of on the wall. I think that was when I saw you, was when the writer started striking, and you’re like, “and it’s gonna get worse before it gets better.” And lo and behold, it did.
Suerez Jones: It sure did. The DGA has a deal so they’re not striking. But in terms of writers and actors and its implications on other departments. You know, if I was working on a movie last year, I wouldn’t be able to work on a movie this year, because it is under the basic agreement contract, which is the contract that I believe the Writers Guild and SAG are striking under right now, which would halt production on movies, TV series, episodic, new media. You know, there’s a very limited amount of jobs available that at this point, as an IATSE member, if we can’t have actors on set, we don’t have a job.
Brennan: It’s a trickle down, which, honestly, in the beginning, I hadn’t really thought of even that immediate next ripple out. But of course, like, and I’m sure you’re not the only industry that falls into that.
Suerez Jones: Yeah, no, definitely not the only union that is suffering some hard times of lack of work right now. Pretty much all IATSE unions are not working. And it’s something that I feel like is talked about by some people like, when SAG announced that they’re striking, they acknowledge that it does affect not just SAG, not just WGA, but obviously IATSE and everyone associated with production. The writers wanted to strike three years ago, but three years ago this time was 2020, and they felt that they were going to save this fight for the next time the contract came down the line, which is now.
Brennan: Because you’re saying the three year increments are when the renegotiations happen. That means that you guys renegotiated recently also. How did you guys avoid a strike? I think I remember you telling me about some of the terms that you were asking for, and like the things that they weren’t willing to give on were basic, you know, human rights type things. So maybe you can go over that?
Suerez Jones: So I think that something important to preface about the previous negotiations with IATSE is that instead of just one union negotiating with AMPTP, we negotiated as 13 Hollywood locals, two years ago. Reason why IATSE was interesting a couple years ago, like I say, the 13 Hollywood locals, it was both of my unions, camera, the Art Directors Guild, and a plethora of others that I’m just like, forgetting, sound, etc, etc. You know, there is always a chance that a union is going to strike every, three years from their contract. So we predominantly the word of on the street in terms of working in this industry in general, is to always have a rainy day fund, because you just really, truly never know, like, when there’s going to be work stoppage. When we do those sheet as 13, the reason why we did it as 13 instead of each singular union is because we were fighting a lot for safety on set. That was, across the board, important for every single union, whether that being turnaround times: from when you leave work to when you get to work the next day. Some people had eight hour turnaround times, which when you break that down, that is crazy, because you have first thirty minutes to an hour drive home, then you got to eat, then you got to go to bed, then you got to wake up in time to then drive an hour or thirty minutes to work, and at that point you’re left with what, like five, six hours of sleep, maybe?
Brennan: It’s such a, again, like we’re talking about kind of basic human rights, but it’s the kind of thing that capitalism can exploit a little bit, because nobody would think to define it until then. And I think that even came up with the with the Rust shooting, that there was something about they had really short windows of time. And thus, is there a question that everybody’s burned out? Let alone other like higher on the Maslow’s hierarchy type, things like, are you having a good life? Are you with your children?
Suerez Jones: Right? Which not possible, unfortunately, like we, I think there are ways that we can make our industry better and more sustainable to have a quality of life and also be a career worker. But I think what you, you, you keep in on, is exploitation of it all. And I think that with the new media, so let’s call it streaming, and just the surge in demand for content, right? Because people no longer was like, “Okay, tune in every Wednesday for Lost,” and everyone’s waiting by their cable boxes to click and watch a lost. Right? In terms of new media and streaming, the residuals is interesting, right? Because we are now, instead of buying into a cable contract where we, you know, spend 100 bucks, whatever, on cable programming, and then in that cable programming there’s commercials, and those commercials are ultimately what help fund residuals, right? When you’re talking about Netflix, Hulu, Disney, plus whatever, although I mean
Brennan: The massive bouquet of things that you have to pay into if you want.
Suerez Jones: Which is kinda like cable! They don’t really have commercials, right? Unless you have the lower plan where you don’t want to pay full for it without commercials or whatever. So and they also don’t release how many times things have been watched. It’s not like YouTube, where you can see how many views it’s been watched, like they’re very notoriously quiet about how many people…
Brennan: So that’s intentional? You think? I mean, it sounds intentional.
Suerez Jones: I think it’s intentional, yeah, because then you can’t quantify really successful a show is to warrant residuals, right? That like, it’s getting so many more subscribers because everyone wanted to turn into Orange is the New Black. And then you see the Orange is the New Black residuals, and it’s like, $0 for this week and for the week after. You know, it’s like, and I will say residuals, while warranted, definitely is not something that’s given across the board. So it’s only above the line. And above the line is like producers, directors, actors, writers, IATSE members don’t see diddly squat from residuals, even though it’s their labor that is going into these shows that makes it successful, that would warrant residuals.
Brennan: And also seeing like you’re the people who are appreciating it are literally seeing that product as well, like the things that you do, the costumes are seen just as much as the actors, etc, etc. That’s interesting. I didn’t know that that was an element.
Suerez Jones: For example, let’s do a really costumey, like Alice in Wonderland, designed by Colleen Atwood, directed by Tim Burton, you know, really over the top, fantastical, amazing, whatever.
Brennan: It is the image, yeah, like the medium is the whatever you know.
Suerez Jones: I know Alice in Wonderland has, like, a pre-established costume, whatever, when marketing materials are made after the fact, like, when it comes to, like toys and branding and all this kind of stuff, the designer sees nothing of it, even if you’re selling Barbies, of the exact design that you designed for sale.
Brennan: That’s super interesting. Has there ever been, do you know if there’s been, like, IP sort of development with that?
Suerez Jones: We’re independent contractors. When we sign on to a job, we’re essentially signing away our design credit, in the sense of, like, they own it now, right?
Brennan: Is the union cool with that type of thing? I know this is kind of a tangent, but like, that’s exactly the type of thing that, even if you’re an independent contractor, you would think the union, I don’t know, would try to provide for something there.
Suerez Jones: It’s something that the my CDG union is fighting for. So when we talk about like SAG and residuals and like their want for it, you know, obviously they’re also on a very different structure than we are as IATSE members. They have to work a certain amount of dollars per year to get their health insurance. We work a certain amount of hours per like year to get our health insurance. And actors, if you’re we’re not talking about the 1% of like the Tom Cruise, the Matt Damon, the whatever.
Brennan: They don’t have the worry about year to year, like they have the rainy day fund and then some.
Suerez Jones: Exactly, but like the actors that are showing up on set as our background workers, that maybe get bumped up to a speaking line, or maybe they’re day players, and they’re like reoccurring characters, but they’re not on all the time, they’re getting a smaller cut of the pie, and so it’s harder to to get to that quota of a certain amount of dollars made to get insurance, which is why a lot of these, you know, actors are side hustlers. With streaming there’s no way to quantify residuals and, there’s no way to bet that what they’re giving you is accurate based off of the numbers of people watching it or whatnot.
Brennan: So there’s no way that they’ve established? I would argue there’s probably a really simple way to do it. You’re mentioning the comparison to advertising on cable. And the one thing that like the thread I would pull with that is, I imagine that these studios do have the money. That, even with the fact that, okay, maybe Netflix, for example, something that doesn’t do ads, they are still, I got to think making something comparable to what a cable service would have made, or maybe one channel within that cable service, because they probably have other deals going. They have contracts with production houses. And you think of how many people start a free trial and then forget to cancel. So I’m hard pressed to feel like the studios and the streaming services being like the new studio equivalents, I guess.
Suerez Jones: They are. They’re like the only studio equivalent. They’re have Warner Brothers. But even Warner Brothers owns now so many other things, Discovery, I think Max from HBO. Paramount Plus owns, like a whole other conglomerate of things.
Brennan: So, the money exists.
Suerez Jones: The money exists, yes.
Brennan: Even though advertising has, is maybe not their primary model anymore, the money is still coming into them in a consistent way. So do they have an explanation? Like, I don’t think anybody’s starving on the streets, like of the studio execs being like, “I just can’t pay you guys anymore.” So how are they making that case? Or is it just pretty unapologetic?
Suerez Jones: It’s right now it’s business time, which means it’s pretty unapologetic in terms of, like, what we’re hearing come out from them. Also, you know, they could be on vacation until the fall and not even come back to the table, you know? And so I want to preface all this by saying, like, I don’t work for the union. I’m not a union rep. I don’t really know what I’m talking about. I’m just giving opinions. But I don’t think it’s just about the money this contract negotiation. I think it’s about AI, and I think that that is what is holding up negotiations, and what they know they can save by replacing these roles with digital background actors. They’re holding strong because for them, the money that they’re losing right now in revenue, like, I guess if you want to say they’re losing revenue, they’re still getting streaming services bills.
Brennan: I’m curious to know what the actual figures are like, and I’m sure it’s not something that’s public, because I’m sure it’s nothing to cry about. But yeah, I wonder, because the other side of that is obviously like, for who blinks first, a lot of folks who don’t have, don’t come from family money or have a partner who will support them, or a really successful side hustle, they might kind of have to blink first or just leave the industry.
Suerez Jones: I think a lot of people will get pushed out completely. Like, reevaluate. Like I’m reevaluating, like, is this a sustainable lifestyle for me to continue on? You know, I have no children. I have no dependents. Like, compile two kids and a mortgage into being an industry worker right now, and I can’t imagine how difficult it is for them. Yeah, there’s been, like, a lot of support in Los Angeles from local grocery stores and restaurants that saying, if you present your WGA or SAG card, we’ll give you free meal or free groceries or this and whatever, which is fine and great. And I’m so happy that they’re supporting those unions, but it’s an entire workforce that is put out. And something I do want to mention, like I said, that we get our insurance based on how many hours we work. If we’re not working union jobs, this year, we’re going to start losing our health insurance, and I feel like we’re also being used as a pawn, right? Because we’re going to start getting upset and angry that we’re going to start going to start stop losing our health insurance while we’re not making money, and then having to pay for health insurance out of pocket. That they kind of are wanting IATSE to put the pressure on SAG and WGA to take a deal, because it is affecting all of our livelihoods. I’m trying not to read into that as like it being officially that, but I also know that trees were cut on the picket lines that were providing shade that were not allowed to be cut. It was right in front of Universal’s offices, and it has been confirmed by the City of LA that those are city trees, and that there was no work order to cut those trees.
Brennan: What are you going to do now? Like forgiveness, not permission,
Suerez Jones: Exactly, they’d rather us be sweltering on the heat. I was going to go to the picket line today. Picket lines have been reduced in the valley, where it’s like over 100 degrees to only go from like eight to noon, and then after that, there’s no picketers.
Brennan: I hope there are other ways to show support, because it seems, it seems to me, like that’s such a symbolic, kind of antiquated way, even when you’re mentioning, like, the teamsters not crossing the picket line. You know, that sounds like a 1920s-thing. I don’t know how much that makes a difference.
Suerez Jones: I think definitely the Teamster solidarity makes a difference. I think IATSE has a no strike clause, meaning, like, we can’t, if WGA and SAG go on strike, which they are, we can’t just strike in solidarity. IATSE is not on strike.
Brennan: So you can’t do the whole health, you know, health insurance, they there’s no provision for you to get any assistance that maybe they could have and prevent yourselves from being pawns of the studios, because you can’t strike at the same time?
Suerez Jones: Right.
Brennan: And I know you’ve, like, worked on competition shows so, and I think I saw somewhere that, like, what was it? 2007, 2008, that last big writers strike? That was, like, some people credit that for the takeoff of, Bravo, because it was one of the only things that was working. So is your take on reality television? What that looks like for you, if it’s a viable alternative?
Suerez Jones: Yes. So reality shows are going right now. My friend is working on the Masked Singer. So that is definitely a way for members to make their health insurance hours and also make their salary. And also Dancing with the Stars, should be coming back this season. That’s a show that I work on pretty regularly over the past couple years, and I did get confirmation that I would be on it if everything is all kosher. So that’s great.
Brennan: Is that affected at all by SAG and Writers Guild?
Suerez Jones: More in like, for example, let’s say an actor wants to come on Dancing with the Stars. An actor may not want to come on Dancing with the Stars because it’s a live television event, and you see an actor working during a time where maybe everyone is still picketing, who knows when the strike is going to end. But regardless, it may optically not look great, even though it’s a different contract.
Brennan: It’s allowed. Yeah.
Suerez Jones: So to the public seeming weird, right? That they’re like, scabbing, blah, blah, balh, all this stuff, but they’re not like, and we’re not, because it’s a different contract that’s being negotiated upon than the one that we’re working under.
Brennan: But I guess that issue wouldn’t really apply for like, non competition shows or full reality? I don’t know it’s such a weird label, because I feel like it encompasses competition shows and then things that are fully not reality.
Suerez Jones: Right, like the Kardashians, or whatever, it may be one of the Bravo shows. And I think ultimately it comes down to different contracts. As far as right now, those are the things that are not affected, including commercials and stuff like that, but those are few and far between. So it’s a whole conglomerate of IATSE workers that are trying and fighting for these positions, and only a finite amount of positions available.
Brennan: And then you think of things like how nepotism would factor into that in an industry where that is so unchecked already. And I feel like there’s also a similar concern that I’ve been talking to some gals that I work with we do a show on like social media protections and young people online, and the the exploitation of not even streaming necessarily, but like the next step beyond which is TikTok content, where parents potentially are making money off of their children on channels. And I feel like that also applies.
Suerez Jones: Yeah, like Tiktok in the influencer industry, or the mom influencers of the world.
Brennan: Like, if people don’t have things to watch on streaming, and the only alternative is reality, are we gonna see a rise in things on other mediums?
Suerez Jones: I think we’re seeing it already. I mean, even Disney had its Haunted Mansion premiere this past week, and a part of the basic agreement contract that they’re striking under, you can’t do any press – and that includes red carpet and premieres – if there is an active strike going on. If you were to go and attend those premieres, you would be a scab. And they also have been saying that if you are wanting to be an actor, or you’re in SAG, and you go to one of those premieres, that you may not be able to continue to work in SAG or get into SAG in the future. And what happened is Disney said, “Okay, bet. You can’t have any celebrities. And then we’re also going to hire a bunch of influencers to make video content about the premiere and promote it that way.” And I’ve been seeing all over TikTok, crossover on TikTok, especially a lot of these influencers may want to be SAG actors one day. They don’t know where their paths are going to lead them and how sustainable their industry presently is, and but they’re like, “I’ll take the $5,000 and go to the Haunted Mansion premiere make some content about it.” But is that scabbing? That’s the question.
Brennan: Right, like, if they’re already outside the industry, and it does, oh my gosh, it raises so many issues about, like, there are no protections for influencers and influencer adjacent folks because they are so outside the industry. So they probably will be the first line of defense, and not necessarily scabs, but like, they’re not in anything
Suerez Jones: But may be prevented from joining SAG in the future, maybe.
Brennan: But then, what if SAG become, oh my gosh, becomes obsolete because they have this ready alternate, I don’t know. This is like radical.
Suerez Jones: Yeah, it’s spooky. All the new technology, all the AI, everything. It’s like, very spooky in terms of where our industry is going to go as a whole. You know, even just like them suggesting that the AMPTP came to the table and they’re like, we’re going to pay back our actors one day’s work. We’re going to scan them and then we’re going to use them in perpetuity as background and all our other movies and all our other shows.
Brennan: Which is like what the fear has been. I mean, there’s like, a Black Mirror episode about it in this new season, which is exactly, yeah, it’s a very real fear.
Suerez Jones: You think about that, right? If they’re digitizing background, which, first of all, background are paid, like, what, like, 300 something dollars, $400 a day, and they’re getting paid one day’s work to be used in perpetuity and not get any work beyond that. Like, it’s just so silly.
Brennan: It’s like, how can you pay dues? Like, how? Because these are expensive unions to be in. It’s yeah.
Suerez Jones: But then also the ripple effect of that is we have a whole department in the costume department called background costumers. And if we don’t have any background to dress, and if we don’t have shoppers going out and pulling from costume houses. If we don’t have them shopping in the stores of the local economy, if, like, we don’t have people on set to dress those people. We’re taking away livelihood of other unions because of, literally, the exploitation of another union. And so, you know, I say that to say what is going on right now is so important, despite us not striking right now. They are laying the groundwork, especially with AI that will have protections for us later. I don’t think that Netflix and Hulu and all these new media, which what we call tech companies, really understood the union structure of things when they first entered into this industry. And I think that they’re fully focused on disrupting it fully. In the sense of wanting the most amount of capital possible.
Brennan: It’s how they were bred. Yeah, I mean, like, it worked really well for them. Our system is designed for them, kind of.
Suerez Jones: Yeah, I know when people are like, “Oh, there’s nothing on Netflix or Hulu because they haven’t been working for the past year, so there’s no new content.” Then they’re like, “Okay, TikTok.”
Brennan: Yes, exactly. And so I do, yeah, I do worry about that as the inevitable turn, even if it’s like, if it starts as a “Okay, well, until this is over.” People create new habits, and I guess it came to my mind when you mentioned AI, can you see a version of your work? Because I know, like, totally different industry, but like with legal work, I can see a world where, yes, I would have to learn some new things, but it would be nice to have certain things automated. It would just mean learning to work with that software. And I still, like, I could see your creativity then going into coming up with the designs themselves and plugging that in. Is there an iteration of that that you could see, or is it too early to tell?
Suerez Jones: In terms of AI helping our departments?
Brennan: Yeah, and like, maybe not necessarily eliminating all jobs and working days, but transforming the type of work, kind of like computers did for architects when they first came out. That it’s like, it didn’t eliminate the jobs, it just changed them.
Suerez Jones: At this point, and with what AI has like exposed themselves to be at this juncture, I don’t see it helping our department. In fact, we have a whole illustrator portion of the costume designer’s guild that is at great loss if AI art comes in with a rampant. So,
Brennan: Because it’s not even like using software to illustrate is just like fully generating everything?
Suerez Jones: Right.
Brennan: Gotcha, yeah.
Suerez Jones: And obviously you need someone to be writing the prompts to like, be like, “Okay, change the kilt to a green color and maybe an aubergine purple”, and like, have it able to understand explicitly what we’re trying to communicate artistically. And that also comes down to the like, the whole reason that AI is like, I guess a little eh, is because you have to train the AI, right? And how do you train the AI? You have to put real humans art into the system. And you’re basically infringing from other people’s style of work and their their artistry.
Brennan: You’re literally using their name too. Like, yeah, that’s gonna be its own, it already is, but like, will continue to be an IP issue. Thank you for making that distinction. Because in my head, I was like, well, technically, could Nicole just go in and be like, I’ll use the AI to come up with this concept, rather than drawing it freehand or something. But yeah, it is generative, I guess. So even if you did some guidance, it would only be like an hour versus a week.
Suerez Jones: Right, and that takes away work from someone that’s very skilled, very talented and trained and a union member at that ,to be able to do their job. So, it’s just a very interesting time, because I think more so for the entertainment industry, AI is going to take jobs away, then it will be able to help streamline and expedite like processes. Because you take away background, you’re also taking away background custumers. You take away illustrators with AI, they just don’t exist anymore. You know what I mean? So I bet you and I, we haven’t started our contract discussions, yet, of what we are like fighting for in our next negotiation in terms of my unions that I’m a part of.
Brennan: Would that be in three years?
Suerez Jones: No, next September, our basic agreement contract expires. So what I’m like dreading is that we’re gonna go through this whole strike season until the new year, and then we’re finally going to be back working, and then maybe go on hold all over again with another strike. Because, you could always get scabs to fill in for, like, costume design, costumers, whatever. Yeah, I mean, there’s, there’s a non union person on the street that wants that credit, but like, it’s not going to be as much of a disruption if one union strikes this fall, versus 13 Hollywood locals striking in the fall because that’s many departments. You can’t possibly replace that many departments. But if we do end up striking, obviously, no one wants to do a strike. No one wants a work stoppage. They want to come to an agreement in good faith, but it’s like, how are we going to get what we want? The fact that the costume department is the lowest paid in the entire industry in the sense of, um, I have a chart. My job position is at the very bottom of the chart. So here’s the scales on a weekly rate. The pink at the bottom,
Brennan: That’s you?
Suerez Jones: Yeah, and the second pink right there, that’s the costume designer. And then you have all of these people that come before the costume designer in terms of payment, and you want to know why? Because we’re predominantly a woman-based union, and when we first started negotiating our contracts, way back in the beginning of history, we’re valued less. So we started off lower, and as each three years goes by, we can only incrementally go up by one to three percent in our pay sale. Which is no where close, but that’s also based off of a 60 hour work week, and we only get paid a flat rate, so if we work in the overtime, that’s still our rate. All right, yeah, A week, and we only get paid a flat rate, so if we work any overtime, that’s still our rate.
Brennan: Sorry, yeah, that makes so much sense that you’re saying it, but damn all these things that are so insidious.
Suerez Jones: Yeah, and I mean, it’s really contract to contract, so you can’t possibly know all the legalese language of each contract, what their safety provisions are, this, that and whatever.
Brennan: Let alone actually enforcing it when you’re an individual worker. Women tend to have less training to stand up for themselves vocally. So I mean, this is just a negotiation piece. Who knows how it plays out in practice.
Suerez Jones: Right. Definitely encouraging anyone that wants to be a costume designer to be a costume designer. But if I had known some things before starting in this industry…
Brennan: The good and the bad of that is, though, I feel like every industry has a similar problem, and the only fix is like, “be born into wealth!”
Suerez Jones: Why couldn’t I have that card?
Brennan: I know, can’t plan for that too well.
Suerez Jones: Well, thank you so much for chatting to an IATSE member about this strike business.
Brennan: Absolutely. Thank you for giving your insights.
This is the law edition of We Mean Business, sponsored by the Reynolds Center at Arizona State University.
