In this episode, Ananya Bhargava interviews Chris Peña, a graduate of the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication at Arizona State University with 10 years of experience in social media. Focusing on the rise of meme marketing, the discussion explores how internet culture and social media platforms have evolved, what makes certain brand campaigns go viral while others fall flat, and whether meme marketing is a sustainable strategy or just a short-term trend.
Transcript
[Intro Music]
Ananya Bhargava: Memes have evolved far beyond internet humour. They’ve become a powerful tool in modern brand marketing. As companies try to connect with younger audiences, many turn to memes and viral trends to stay culturally relevant. But navigating the world of internet humor isn’t easy. A campaign can take off overnight or backfire just as quickly. With the fast pace of online culture, it’s worth asking: Is meme marketing a sustainable strategy or just a series of short-lived viral moments?
I’m joined by Chris Peña, a graduate of the Cronkite School with a decade of experience in social media. He has worked with major brands like MTV, BuzzFeed, HBO Max, HarperCollins, and Penguin Random House, and has done agency work for Spotify, where he focused on community management and trendspotting. In this episode, we’ll explore how internet culture and social media platforms have evolved, what makes a meme-marketing campaign successful, and what the future might look like for brands trying to stay relevant online.
Bhargava: You’ve been doing this for essentially a decade, so I’d love to hear your thoughts on how the internet has transformed the way we communicate, entertain ourselves and engage with just culture in general.
Chris Peña: Social media and how we use it every single day is no longer the way we communicate. It’s really just the way we are nowadays. Not only is social media part of pop culture, it’s part of daily life for so many people. So I think when Vine came out, I think it began kind of the cycle that spoke to the testament of “people have really short attention spans.” Because for those who aren’t familiar with Vine, the longest video you could upload to that platform was six seconds. It was really just super quick, digestible content, and people really had to be creative, because you only had six seconds to stand out. And when I was a user of Vine, there were no companies on it, there were no brands, people were barely becoming the influencers we see today. A lot of influencers who have very big followings, and have very lucrative careers now, got their start on Vine. And it’s unfortunate that Vine had to go away because they refused to sell out and put ads on their platform so and essentially, because no one was paying for it, it just had to go. But I think back then, like Vine and Tumblr, a lot of, if not any, professional brands or corporations or companies or movie titles or anything like that, had a presence on either of those platforms. It wasn’t really until the huge Twitter boom that was around 2011-2012 where, you know, the Wendy’s and Netflix and Oreo, where they started to really insert themselves into that social conversation. And so now, I think it’s interesting, because back then, if I worked at a company where social media wasn’t what it is today, kind of making a page for your brand wasn’t necessarily the first thing you would do, but now it’s like, “Okay, we’re starting this brand,” or “We’re kicking off a new sector of the brand. Let’s make a new TikTok page. Just make a new Twitter page.” So I think it’s very second nature now when it comes to a professional rollout, or when it comes to just getting your message across, the power that social media holds is really unmatched. And I think the more time goes on, the more it continues to prove that fact.
Bhargava: You mentioned Wendy’s and all of these brands sort of using humor on Twitter. And I feel like at that time, what made it so viral was the novelty. You don’t usually see a brand act so casual. So do you think that novelty has worn off now, or do you think that’s what the recipe is for virality when it comes to meme marketing?
Peña: A huge chunk of the social media novelty has worn off. Because not only is it such an oversaturated market, not only do you have brands trying to stay relevant on social, you have people who are their own brand who are trying to stay relevant on social as well. And so it’s everyone. It’s like that saying where it’s like ‘there’s too many cooks in the kitchen.’ It’s been like that for seven or eight years now. I think in the beginning, when Wendy’s and Netflix were being very snarky to other customers on Twitter or to even other brands in like, 2011-2012 it was very new and exciting. And we were like, “We’ve never seen brands kind of let their hair down and not take themselves too seriously,” but in terms of just the passage of time, that’s really not “in” anymore, it can kind of be seen as “cringe” and granted, it’s like yes, we see Domino’s or McDonald’s or Subway, or any of those food brands on Twitter will shade another brand or like their competitor, or any member of their audience on socials, and it still goes viral. So it’s like yes to a point for certain brands, it is tried and true.
However, nowadays, even though everything has been done, it still pays to be original, and I think it pays to be true to the brand that not only are you employed with, but who you’re speaking to. And those are things that are always a part of my thought process. Whenever I’m making any content or writing any content for social I’m thinking of, “Who are we talking to? Does it make sense,” and “Do we belong in that conversation?” So a lot of it changes, but a lot of it stays the same.
Bhargava: Would you like to just define what a meme is and how meme culture has changed?
Peña: It’s funny, because there’s so many different meme formats now. When I was in college, the only memes I saw were static images, and they weren’t even screenshots of TV shows or anything back then. It was more of like drawings, bad Photoshop edits, or like Paint – I don’t know if you remember the Paint app on computers – people would use that. That’s where we got all of our memes, and we would just add text on them. And then I think the more we evolved as social professionals and just following the social zeitgeist in general, there was a lot more content to pull from, whether that’s from movies or TV shows or music videos. And then making it and then just adding that relatable text on top of it. And I think no matter what the format of a meme is and how much it’s changed over the years, that relatable text, if it doesn’t resonate with someone, they’re not going to share it. So relatability is huge, while also talking about a new product or a new movie release or things like that. It’s like relatability, relatability, relatability.
Bhargava: So would you like to talk a bit more about what’s the step by step process you go through with that added pressure that usually when you’re working with memes, or a certain format, they go by pretty quickly. So how do you jump into that process and make sure that you’re on top of things and not late to a trend?
Peña: Yeah, so they do go by very quickly. You know, what’s trending this morning, it’s possible n obody could care about it by the end of tonight. So I think it is important to act very quickly and to spot these trends and to insert your brand or yourself into that conversation as quickly as possible. But what a lot of people don’t realize is that everywhere has different approval processes, so a lot of it can be bogged down. And I’ve been fortunate enough to be in a few places where I’ve had total creative freedom, where I’ve been able to hop on trends very quickly. And then there are some times where the trend will have to cut our losses because things didn’t get approved on time, or you know, there’s just a lot of things like that.
But what I’m always looking for is, “Does it make sense coming from a brand like Spotify?” you know what I mean? So if I see a very viral piece of content that’s taken off on Instagram or TikTok or Twitter, how can I insert Spotify voice into that conversation that already exists? Is it authentic? Is it corny? Is it going to be like, cringy? And honestly, like, it’s having done this however many years I have, it’s gotten a lot easier to spot, “Oh, this trend will be perfect for us,” or like, “Oh, like, let’s stay away from this because it’s corny.” Because no one is quicker to call out a brand for being corny than the internet. So it’s just, it’s always making sure: Does it make sense to your audience? And if this person isn’t a part of your audience, would it make sense to them anyway? Because you’re speaking in a way that is so casual and conversational. My rule of thumb is to always talk to people, not at them, because if yes, I’m having a conversation with the phone or computer screen, but someone else is reading that and is going to laugh and be like, “Oh my God, that’s so me, like, that’s so relatable,” because it all comes back to relatability, and if we’re trying too hard to be relatable, then it just makes you look bad.
Bhargava: You gave us a few examples of which companies use a lot of meme marketing. And so I’d love to hear, do you think that any brand can successfully use memes, or is it like more specific to certain industries and audiences?
Peña: So I think any brand can do it if it’s done right, which goes back to what I mentioned earlier, and what’s like one of my rules of thumb is: Know your audience. Spotify is not going to make a meme about movies. It’s like not something that’s going to happen. But when I was the Social Media Manager for the Cronkite School, I incorporated memes into our strategy pretty frequently. Whenever there was a trending meme, I would look at it and be like, “Okay, we’re speaking to Gen Z college students/Millennial college students, about college, about studying, about schoolwork,” and things like that. That right there opens up the floodgates to pretty much any meme format, as long as we did it right. And then again, when I was working at Fox10 Phoenix, we had memes about the weather because we knew our audience cared about the weather. When it ends up breaking 100 degrees for the day, we make a meme about that because we know people know people will resonate with that.
And back in my PR days, I remember we would try to pitch a few memes for some healthcare clients, and every now and then they would get approved, because this was 10 years ago, so memes weren’t what they were today. It just goes to that trust that you have. You have to trust yourself to know what you’re doing and kind of making sure it makes sense to that audience. But also that may require redefining your social strategy altogether. You know, memes are such a part of online culture, I’d like to say never say never. Everywhere I’ve worked, memes are just a part of life. I do think when it comes to certain subject matter, obviously stay away from it, but it just depends on knowing your audience and then finding that way in. And it can be a little challenging, but there’s almost always an in for that.
Bhargava: Yeah, that sounds amazing. And it really seems like memes can be like a really, really powerful tool if you use them correctly. So would you say that you have any, like, favorite brands that consistently do meme marketing really well, and what do you think makes their approach stand out?
Peña: I think a lot of, not to sound biased, but a lot of the International Spotify accounts, like Spotify New Zealand, or like Spotify Australia, they stick to the “less is more” format for memes. There’s one of like, a stick figure listening to music, and it’s so simple but yet it’s so relatable. And I think a lot of that works. And then I think there’s a lot of the big streamers, one that’s like working for Netflix as a roundup of stills from the show or movie that they’re highlighting, and it’s slide by slide, it kind of explains what’s going on and that’ll get you interested if you don’t know what that show or movie is about. But another one that I love, that I’ve seen a few streamers do, is the same still or a screenshot from the show or movie and it’s the same line, but every slide is different meme language. I used to do that at MTV whenever I could, but I think those, those make you want to figure out what the show is about, and they’re doing their job with that.
Bhargava: Yeah, those are really good examples. And I haven’t heard much about the international Spotify accounts, I’ll check that out. It sounds like they do a lot of the Tumblr memes, which is interesting.
Peña: They do. And it goes to show the different cultures across the world, like, what we may think is outdated, people in Auckland, New Zealand, will love it, but us, like, I manage the voice of the global Spotify account. So it’s kind of like combining all that into one.
Bhargava: That’s interesting, and do you think it’s about sort of the cultural thing, or do you think that the trends are sort of cycling back?
Peña: What helps me and what will help anyone who’s breaking into social media, especially now in the year 2025 when it’s been around for so long, is that every single trend that you see going viral has been done before, every format you’re seeing has been done before. And you know what? That’s okay, like, people freak out about trying to be original and trying to be new. And it’s like, yes, originality is very important, but so is staying true to your brand when and your tone of voice. Now, does that mean recycling old formats? Maybe, probably because no one will remember the content you’re putting out more than you do, and no one pays attention to social feeds more than the person who is running those feeds.
Bhargava: Are there any examples of brands failing at meme marketing that you can think of and what went wrong in those cases?
Peña: I always like to give people who are doing like memes and running social accounts the benefit of the doubt, because there’s a lot of approvals and mess that we don’t see that goes on behind the scenes. So I think there are a few brands who have shown up, like late to the trends. There was one where it was Heinz ketchup. It was right after Barbie that summer, where Barbie took over the entire world, and I think it was Oppenheimer around the same time. Those were just, like, very relevant pop culture things. And a lot of people were doing, oh, like, this pink one is Barbie, and this black one is like Oppenheimer. And so I think a few months after that, trying to kind of die down, Heinz ketchup shared a Barbie and an Oppenheimer ketchup picture. And we don’t know what happened behind the scenes in terms of approvals, but they got pretty dragged through the mud on like, Twitter and Instagram, with the comments being like, “this is so late, nobody even cares about this anymore,” which is always unfortunate. But we don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. But I think in terms of holding people accountable, maybe the people who are managing those accounts should have known, but like, “Okay, we should cut our losses, because no one’s talking about this anymore.” It’s always an unfortunate mishap when a brand shows up to a trend very late to the party, or when a brand is like, doing community management on a post or a viral piece of content that they have no business commenting on, you know, like, I always think it’s funny, or just kind of like, “Oh, well, what was the thought process here?” when I see, like, the Colgate TikTok commenting on a funny food TikTok or like a dog meme. It’s like, I get you’re trying to stay relevant, but if you’re trying to stay relevant to everyone, no one is going to care, because you’re not being loyal to that brand audience.
Bhargava: Are there any other big risks involved with a brand using memes?
Peña: I think there’s always risks, no matter what. However, there are a group of boxes that you should be checking to ensure that any risk is kind of relatively low, which goes back to those boxes that you want to check off: Is it brand safe? Does it make sense to our brand? Are we speaking to our audience? Are we being as casual and conversational as possible? And are we being authentic to who this brand is? So with those things in mind, the risks are going to be very low, however, things can be perceived by someone else in an entirely different light, and that’s really just the reality of working in social. What I might think is funny, someone could think is boring or like not funny at all. What I think could be deemed as offensive, someone else wouldn’t think it’s that offensive. So it’s just people’s perceptions you can never gauge. But it goes back to that core list of responsibilities that you’re holding yourself accountable for before you publish those memes. Because I think if you don’t hold yourself accountable, it opens the floodgates, and you end up being dragged in Adweek.
Bhargava: We often talk about engagement metrics, like likes, shares, comments and just general social media engagement. But do those types of memes and humor actually drive sales and engagement with the product that the company is selling? Or do you think it ends up being more focused on just being in the conversation?
Peña: Driving sales on social is very important, depending on what sector you’re in. However, when I’m working in social, I always strive to create brand awareness, because you can’t force someone to go to your website and to click purchase products or things like that. So I think the more engagement things get, the better you are at building that like brand visibility and that brand awareness. Because likes and comments just they’re not as really, to me, they’re not as important as they were 10 years ago. It’s like, yes, if a post gets 75,000 likes, obviously that’s a success. But is it like the end all be all? Personally, I don’t think so. I mean, and that kind of goes with the times that we’re in now. Everyone’s posting constantly on social media, and as long as you’re continuing to build that brand awareness, and it makes sense then I’m all for it. But a lot of people need to realize that brand awareness does not equal or equate to brand sales. Because at the end of the day, like social media managers are not sales reps, we’re there to create that awareness and to spark someone’s interest.
Bhargava: Yeah, so it sounds like meme marketing and social media management in general is more geared towards the reach and the visibility, which we can say is like the first step to maybe brand resonance, or like, actually, then engaging with the brand. So do you think that should be the primary focus when we’re talking about meme marketing? And that should be, like, the main objective that maybe companies who are getting into meme marketing should focus on?
Peña: Yes, I think so. It’s just about that visibility and putting themselves out there. So once the undue pressure is taken off of you and of trying to hit that quota or like get a sale, it’s like, that’s not the social media manager’s responsibility. It’s like, yes, we do want to drive traffic via Instagram stories or like links in bio, but at the end of the day, we’re there to build that awareness and to just make sure people know we exist.
Bhargava: And so as meme culture and internet culture as a whole evolve, what do you think the next big trend in digital marketing will be? I know we’ve seen that transition to short form video. We’ve seen things become a bit more focused on carousels and more interactive media. So what do you think is next?
Peña: Having done this for so long, we can expect more of the same. We can see more apps coming out that are essentially regurgitations of apps we’ve already seen, which is fine, you know, the more the merrier, but expect, like, more of the same. And expect that whatever the CEOs of TikTok and Instagram tell us is going to work, that’s what we have to kind of follow, because they’re the ones who are serving our algorithms. The algorithms are always changing, and so is the world of social media, which is why I’ve been doing this for so long. Yes, I’ve worked at a lot of different companies, but I really can’t see myself doing anything else, because it’s always changing. And at the same time, while it’s always changing, there’s always, though, those tried and true formats, evergreen formats, that are always going to work. So it keeps it fun, keeps you on your toes, but you know what to expect at the same time. I think for anyone who’s like, looking to get into social media, like, just don’t be afraid to fail or mess up, as long as you have the best of intentions going into whatever content you’re creating or the work you’re doing, it’s okay to fail, because no one is going to remember it, other than you. Have fun, and who knows what this is going to look like in five years.
[Outro Music]
