SAG-AFTRA is still striking against the AMPTP (Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers – movie studios, big streaming corporations, etc.) even as the writer’s union has reached its own agreement with the studios this week. In this episode, Mackenzie Joy-Brennan talked to SAG member Marie Cecile Anderson — an actor, comedian, and musician based in Nashville — about the strike decision, the demands union members are asking for, and what life is like as a working union actor, even while on strike.
Transcript
Mackenzie Joy Brennan: The SAG-AFTRA and WGA, respectively, actors and writers unions have made the tough decision to strike against the AMPTP, which is movie studios, big streaming corporations, etc. So, exploring these actors and writers strikes, I talked to SAG-AFTRA member Marie Cecile Anderson, who is an actor, comedian and musician based in Nashville, Tennessee. Marie joins tens of thousands of her show business colleagues striking for equitable, streaming compensation and transparent, fair contract terms from studios who are threatening to use their AI-generated replicas ad nauseam. Together, union members are facing a massive loss of work and Income without a strict timeline on when it will come back, to advocate for their rights and the rights of people in their industry in the future, the future, the corporate studios and streaming services, on the other hand, who make up the AMPTP, have made their billions of dollars on union members backs, yet they refuse to even negotiate while the strike is ongoing. That is the short version of my conversation with Marie.
Marie Cecile Anderson: Hello, my name is Marie Cecile Anderson. I am a comedian and a very proud SAG-AFTRA member. I’m in Nashville, Tennessee. I lived in New York City for 15 years, and that’s where I got my SAG card.
Brennan: And explain, I know I’ve heard other people bemoan getting their SAG cards. So just to start out, how hard it is to get into SAG.
Anderson: Oh my gosh, well, so I started in theater when I was five years old. Like I’ve had that acting bug since I was practically born, and I always (A) I wanted to join Actors Equity. So I actually did an apprenticeship for 10 months in California, where at the end you were supposed to be given your Actor’s Equity card.
Brennan: And that’s a different union?
Anderson: Yes. So to tell this story, it’s the reason why getting my SAG card was so important. So believe it or not, when I finished my 10-month apprenticeship, where I was making $91.17 a week to live on as an apprentice, an acting apprentice, when I asked to get my union card for the theater, they wanted me to stay on another six months after my internship. And I was like, “No, I have. I would like to move to New York City.” I was promised my union card, I was then denied it. You know, I’m 21-years-old, and I’m not going to fight this big theater company and so. But since then, actually, they’ve gotten way better, because somebody did suit them for it Anyway, cut to years later, living in New York City, deciding I didn’t want to do more more theater. I wanted to focus on TV and film. So I started doing anything and everything I could to build up points. You have to have 25 points in order to get your SAG card. I mean, I thought again, like, “Oh, this is just such a great this is, this is really how it works as an actor.” The truth is, is that I think a lot of people get, like, one huge, big job because to join, it’s like, I believe I paid $3,500 to join SAG as a broke actor.
Brennan: Again, everything favors people who come for money.
Anderson: Yeah, exactly. Music is the exact same way. I mean, I studied acting in college, you know, I did this apprenticeship. I was promised my union card for theater, didn’t get that, denied that, and then worked my butt off in New York City, doing film and TV, doing a lot of background acting. I did, featured background work. I tried to do under fives for soap operas and stuff like, just to get because the more union work you do as non-union, you get more points, and so you can join SAG. I then had only, like, after, I mean, what is it 10 years of work or something, still only had, like, 16 points. And then, I mean, it was so frustrating, but then I got so lucky. I auditioned – my agent didn’t even get me this job, I found it on my own – for a web series, and we had a very successful first season of this web series that then for our second season, he had raised enough money to go union, whereas then he was offering us to join if we wanted to. So I was actually SAG eligible. I didn’t have to join, but I wanted to so badly, so then I had to pay the $3,500 to join SAG.
Brennan: You’re welcome.
Anderson: Yeah, right. My agent at the time, I did not discuss it with her, because I had been working towards this goal pretty much my entire acting career. When I did join I was so excited, I posted it on Instagram. You know, it’s just like, such a big milestone as an actor and a professional actor too. Like, that’s the goal, right? To actually get paid professionally.
Brennan: And you’re doing the work. So if we’re talking about meritocracy-type thing, you studied this, you’re putting the time in everything should suggest that is evidence of for everybody who would be like capitalist, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You were literally doing that. I guess, not literally.
Anderson: Right? But so then I joined SAG, I was so excited to email my agent, “Now you can just submit me to just union work.” And she got so angry. She was, like, “You should have thought about this. Like, I can’t submit you.” I mean, there’s just way more non-union work. Like, and non-union work does not pay well at all. You also, like, are putting yourself in..
Brennan: That’s why unions exist.
Anderson: Exactly, yeah, they don’t pay well. The working conditions are, could be dangerous. I’ve definitely had some circumstances in non-union work where did not feel comfortable on set, the director is a creep. And so again, that’s why we joined, that’s why we have unions. That’s why it was so exciting to join the union, so that so my agent that I had been with for a long time, all of a sudden was like, is mad at me, and this is in New York. But I then was lucky, because it did open up a lot of opportunities to actually make real money, because I had friends in the industry who were assistant directors or background talent coordinators that did get me work, and that helped me. I mean, that helped me survive my time in New York City, whenever I was absolutely strapped for cash, I could then email a friend and get put on Law and Order, you know, whatever, as a background actor and make $198 or something that day. That was a lot of money to me.
Brennan: Okay, so these are the benefits of being in the union versus not. These are the hurdles you have to clear.
Anderson: Yes, so, but I think that what’s happening now, specifically, and why we are absolutely horrified about what the future looks like. You know, I don’t know if you had a chance to watch Fran Drescher’s speech.
Brennan: She is the President right now of SAG-AFTRA?
Anderson: Yes of SAG, which, honestly, when she first got it, I was like, the Nanny is our president? But I tell you what, she has gone to bat for us, and everything she stands for, and I think the truth is, I think that why she’s such a great representation of what, like, where we’ve come from and where we are now, is because when she was in The Nanny, everything was on network television, and so you could actually have the proper residuals. It’s the streaming services that has fucked everything up, but now it’s like incredibly.. the streaming services like Netflix, Disney, Paramount all this, they’re not even..
Brennan: Like all of things that you have to subscribe to, even as a watcher, to get things.
Anderson: Right. It’s all about the residuals for the actor, because you get paid, yes, okay, so I got so lucky. Last year, I did one national commercial. I worked one day last year as a professional actor. I must have had 40 auditions last year, which also takes so much time and you don’t get paid for, which that’s also another thing that they’re trying to fight for. But, so last year, for example, I booked one thing out of all of those auditions, luckily, the commercial contracts, it was a national Visa commercial and that is actually not on the chopping block right now. That is not something that we’re actually up for debate. You can still that is a totally different contract. And so when actors on strike right now, we can actually still do SAG commercials.
Brennan: Even if you went out tomorrow. Like, is there a distinction? Because, yes, you signed this before, versus?
Anderson: Well, it’s just not on the chopping block. It’s not something that is being negotiated with these streaming networks, because its a totally different contract.
Brennan: And this is really just like negotiation with streaming networks?
Andreson: Yes, yes, from what I understand, because that was a very clear thing that my agent, because I did have a commercial audition the day before the strike, and I was like, “Wait, can I, I mean, we’re gonna go on strike, like, is this okay?” And so she did send a list of things that you can still do as a SAG. Tennessee is actually a right-to-work state, so it’s been very different living here, as my understanding of a right-to-work state, is that even if it’s union, if it’s a union job, anyone has a right still to bring a union job here, but then they’re allowed to let anyone work it, you don’t have to be SAG.
Brennan: That’s my understanding too. I honestly don’t, I should look into this more, but I know Arizona is also a right-to-work state, and my understanding is that it kind of, it limits the bargaining power that unions have, because it essentially makes certain provisions for what are called scabs. So I’m familiar with it in the teaching context, which is totally so it’s like everyone across the board, if you’re in a union, my aunt’s a teacher, when they were trying to strike to get more pay people for whatever reason, like there weren’t any protections that only union jobs could work teaching, and so they could easily bring in scabs, which makes it that much easier for the people in power to be like, “All right.”
Anderson: Exactly.
Brennan: And so yeah, and some states don’t do that.
Anderson: Right, believe it or not, when I’m as soon as I moved to Nashville, when I first got here, it was during the pandemic, and I had so many auditions because, actually, a lot of work was coming through Tennessee. Since the writer strike, all I’ve had one, no, I’ve had two auditions this entire year, where usually I have two auditions a week.
Brennan: Okay, so that’s a big contrast, yeah.
Anderson: It’s been really, and luckily, I have an agent here in Nashville who is completely on the writers and actors side, and breaks down everything for us in a very long email about every other day, but just that she wants to make sure that we don’t break the strike. But with this one national commercial, because of the residuals, because they actually, every week, I got a breakdown of where it played, how many times it played, and then the amount of money I got for every time it played. But getting that and actually the residual breakdown is what makes sense. What’s happening right now with the streaming services is they won’t even, there’s zero transparency of how, how many plays, what’s the you know, where is it playing? How many times is it played? Because every time somebody watches you on your device, right, or anything you should, the actor, the writer, should get paid. But the streaming networks, because, I mean, it’s, truly, is the wild wild west. And they established this stuff so early, I guess, like, if we don’t negotiate this stuff now, they will replace us with AI. They will replace, like, all union actors will be out of work.
Brennan: It’s not personal, and it’s not personal if, if that makes sense, like it, it’s just about money to them, so if somebody can replace that. Now, do you think that because you mentioned AI, and I know that that throws another wrench into the works, even if you do negotiate this? Now, what I would worry is like, oh, shoot, if this is what you have to do, if you have real actors, is there then a new incentive to work with AI?
Anderson: Absolutely. I mean, I think that this is what’s terrifying to me, is that, like we can reflect on Amazon, we can reflect on Uber Lyft, DoorDash, like all of these tech companies, it’s the exact same model, I think.
Brennan: And it is when you say Wild West, like, in a legal sense too. There are, you think of like going back to when we got labor like protections in every other industry, and that was in, like, turn of the century that they had models for unions in general. And so this is a literal new model of business that people, there’s nothing legally protecting anyone, and I don’t even think jurists know what protection would look like and adequately cover digital technology loophole.
Anderson: So a lot of people are saying, “Hey, Biden administration, you actually really should be paying more attention and revisiting these laws,” because if we don’t fix it now, I mean, it’s going to be disastrous. It truly will be disastrous for the for the industry. Either they’re gonna just, like, stop giving jobs to Julie Roberts, or scan her movies and then continue to use her likeness.
Brennan: It’s like the Black Mirror. I don’t know if you saw the new season of Black Mirror, but that’s like the premise of the first one. And I heard Justine Bateman talking about that, that like a lot of folks, are not even savvy enough about what the options are going to be with AI to know what to advocate against. Because the other thing I worry is, like federal protection is one thing, but state by state is where a lot of other stuff happens. And we don’t technically have a monopoly right now, because we have a lot of different streaming services. So if they are all competing against each other?
Anderson: Oh yeah, they’re not gonna.
Brennan: So okay, I guess. Well, what are your demands, and what are the trajectories that you see this going in?
Anderson: Oh gosh, I have so many demands. Well, just looking at the breakdown, I mean, what we’re fighting for right now is that inflation is at the top, because SAG is asking right now for, we need 11% general wage increase in the first year so our members can recover from this record inflation during the previous contract. But what they’re willing to offer us, they responded back with they’ll give 5% even though that means in 2023 earnings will effectively be significant pay cut due to inflation, and it is likely you’ll be working for less than what you made in 2020 wages in 2026.
Brennan: And this is in addition to streaming already adding less money, in general?
Anderson: Right. So this is, I mean, we’re just trying to make up for what we’ve lost. And then if we keep, if we’re on the same track as if we don’t do anything basic, or even if we do increase a little bit, we’re still be making the same way less wages in 2020 the less wages that we were making in 2020, in 2026, if that makes sense.
Brennan: Okay, yeah, which, at the very least at the like best case scenario, it’ll stay where things are, because inflation generally does not move backwards.
Anderson: Right. So inflation is a huge thing. I feel like inflation is such a sensitive topic for me, because I worked at a restaurant in New York City for 14 years, and I never got a raise until the very last year, even though we survived, like through the you know, 2008- ish, that full period of time, like in the fact that even though everything was my rent was going up, what cost of living in New York City was going up, we’re still making so I feel like I’m so sensitive to workers being exploited because they do not consider inflation. They’re aware of it, but, yeah, they don’t even consider it for their workers.
Brenna: Like even the national federal minimum wage not, I think it went up marginally in recent years, but for a long, long time, it hadn’t changed since I was born. And so you think, like, has anything else gone up in price that affects cost of living? Yeah, a fair amount
Anderson: Yeah, and these rich people, I think that they just don’t think we’re smart enough to do the math, or I have, I don’t know. So anyway, inflation is a big deal, so I want to be compensated accordingly. And then, obviously, the biggest thing that I am absolutely freaked out about is, this is the digital replica of your performance?
Brennan: Yes, and that’s like generated versions of actors. What are the protections that you guys are suggesting for that?
Anderson: Good question. So I think, they’re saying SAG has gone in there to negotiate. And they’re, I think that they’ve been very savvy about that, of like, okay, we know that this is something that is going to be, that we should be ready for this. It’s coming, it’s here, whatever. So, I mean, basically it’s just that, like you have to be compensated for your likeness or whatever. Yeah, I think that they’re not completely against it. However, this is where it gets tricky.
Brennan: To be paid for not doing something. If you’re paid for your likeness, that’s not the worst thing if they pay you.
Anderson: Right the tricky thing that they’re trying to fight for right now is that, like they’ll have this stuff broken down in your contract. But unless you’re like a super high powered person who has these entertainment lawyers who can make sense of what is said in your contract according to, and negotiate, then, like us, little people will not be able to. So I think that they really are trying to fight for more transparency of what this stuff means and for the little people to understand. Okay, so they do want to do a replica of your loveliness and in perpetuity, or whatever. Yeah. So what does that mean? Will you get compesated? Yeah, because right now they just want to scan your face. I mean, especially as background actors like scan your face and be able to use you forever and always. So I think that they’re really trying. What I appreciate is that, like they’re not just thinking of the celebrities in this they’re thinking of actually the working class people to understand what it means to have your body scanned, and then used.
Brennan: Kind of ad nausea, yeah, used forever, okay, right? Yeah. And maybe less wiggle room than in what kind of contracts places are coming out with, so that nobody is hit with, like, I don’t know what this means. This is different than what we discussed. So I don’t know if, I mean, I’m a lawyer. I don’t read the Terms of Service.
Anderson: Like, right, right. Well, like provisions to grant informed consent and fair compensation when a digital replica is made of our performances is changed using.
Brennan: An informed consent, informed is key. So, yeah, all right. Well, I think that gives me a better picture of what you guys are looking for. Is there, like, a timeline that we should be aware of or?
Anderson: I mean, good question. They’re saying that they’re they won’t negotiate while the union is striking. So that doesn’t really.
Brennan: So that you’re kind of at an impasse, but then you have to just no. That’s the only incentive. So hopefully, if you guys can survive long enough for that to like, for it to matter, to their bottom line.
Anderson: If anything, I really pray that, and I personally am going to double down on this. But, do independent films, because there are independent film contracts that that are still being allowed within, within the strike for SAG members, I think it’s like the low budget indie contract that we’re still allowed to do, because it’s actually for the working class people.
I did read recently it was like, don’t end your your streaming services, like we’re not asking for a boycott yet. Donate to the entertainment community fund, which provides necessary funds for writers and actors to pay their rent and food. I’ve seen a lot of things in LA, some food banks and stuff. If you show them your card, they’ll help you get groceries. I haven’t seen anything like that Nashville, although there was an active picketing line yesterday here at our SAG offices, which is really nice. Okay, so there are a lot of SAG members here.
Brennan: It is one of the, like, next tier of cities. It seems that, you know, I’m sure there is a went there to shoot, kind of like Atlanta. I know New Mexico has it. Phoenix is trying to get in on that game. But it’s like, okay, it’s cheaper to shoot here, maybe in part because it’s right-to-work, but, plus there are more people in your industry there. So, okay.
Anderson: So who knows? I mean, I hope I actually just got a contract. It’s non-union, it’s, I don’t even, it’s a public access show where I would be performing as a comedian and singing and stuff, but I was just looking at the wording, and it’s like, I don’t like the wording, and this is what we’re striking for. It’s like, basically, I do this one show, and then they can use my liveliness for however, wherever they want. And I really would like to do it, but this is what we’re striking for, yeah. Like, if you want to work with you, yeah. So, I mean, again, it’s just, it’s a public access thing that I do know that, then it will be on Amazon, like, it’s for streaming. It will continue to stream, and I will not get paid.
Brennan: They’ll keep getting paid. I mean, just to, like, put it starkly, like they will keep getting paid.
Anderson: The producers will get paid, yeah.
Brennan: But you won’t?
Anderson: Yeah, right. And as much as if I want to do it, I think I’m going to say no, because this is the exact reason why we’re striking.
Brennan: And this is where you have to hope everyone else is in solidarity with you, because if not, they’ll find someone else, and then you’re SOL.
Anderson: Let me tell you, they always find somebody else. This is so terrifying.
Brennan: The caliber is, hopefully, what came with all that hard work you got to put into the union.
Anderson: Right? I know, and I have to say, because of that one Visa commercial, I am able to buy a townhouse, put a down payment. So it was just, I mean, I can’t imagine if I booked two commercials last year, like how amazing. How life changing this stuff is.
Brennan: Right, like you see where you are on that spectrum.
Anderson: Yeah, you really feel it right.
Brennan: Right, love capitalism.
Anderson: I know. Well, thank you so much
Brennan: Absolutely. Thank you and good luck to everyone.
So thank you so much to Marie for sharing her insight and personal experience familiarity with the terms of this strike, etc. Thank you guys so much. And as my aunt and Warren’s Yvonne has said, enjoy every sandwich. Bye, bye.
